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Cellwynar

The End

I never thought I would have to post this and mean it. The warnings were there, but now they're real. Again, I truly hate to steal these words, but there are none better to describe our situation -

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The End. Sounds strange doesn't it? The ship went down faster than the Titanic, but the rats were bailing out before the iceberg was ever even in sight. I'd love to be able to sit here and tell you this was a result of the casualization of the game, of feeding us easy encounters for mediocre rewards, while at the same time undercutting these meager accomplishments and upgrades with welfare epics obtainable by anyone who has a large quantity of time, regardless of their skill or lack thereof. Let's be honest the theme of TBC is sacrificing everything that was good about raiding on the altar of accessibility. Sunwell is an unmitigated success, but let's be honest here, it's taken us 18months to get back to a Naxx level of difficulty and encounter design and we got a meager 6 bosses, that's pretty pathetic.

In any case that's not why you're reading this, is it. So if it wasn't lousy encounter design, shitty loot, cockblocks, etc, than what was it? The most fundamental currency there is in WoW. People. Somewhere along the line people got the idea that they were bigger than the guild. That what they wanted was more important than what was good for the guild. That somehow they deserved respect just for being around. And other people just stopped caring. Not only did they stop caring, but they didn't have the common decency to quit, they hung around for whatever reasons promising us they were going to be there, and we foolishly believed them out of loyalty for what we'd been through together. We had officers who couldn't take a stand any more and made decisions based on what was 'easy'. We had OFFICERS who disappeared with no notice, and would come and go as they pleased, yet still felt entitled to make decisions about where we were going. There is no 1 person's shoulder to place this on, it was a group effort.

Let's talk about a few important words here.

Quote:
According to dictionary.com
Quote:
Progress - gradual improvement or growth or development


That's right GRADUAL. Progress doesn't happen all in 1 night, but apparently some people that we had here didn't understand that. They thought bosses just fell over the first night because of the tag over their head, and the most important thing was how much damage they could do at all times. Newsflash - it doesn't work like that. It's pretty ironic that the first people to jump ship when progress wasn't going fast enough, were the same ones jerking off in the 5man, and holding up the raid on the first day. Progress takes time, and world firsts don't fall from the sky, they're the result of a lot of hard work, and effort. The reputation of this guild was built on the backs of a lot of hard work and dedication from EVERYONE. The guild was bigger than any of us, and we knew it. Which leads into the second word.

Pride. Once upon a time we had pride. Pride in our guild, pride in ourselves, pride in what we'd done. Pride is showing up and giving your best effort, ESPECIALLY when you don't want to be there, because your guildmates deserve that. We didn't always get world firsts, it's impossible to always be first, that's just not how the game works, but we showed up every day, EARLY and busted our asses, and we were proud of what we accomplished, be it world first or world 1000th. We didn't whine or complain about our fucking groups, or worry about loot. We killed bosses. Period. We gave our best effort because those around us deserved it, because the guild deserved it. We had pride about what we had done, not what those before us had done. But we also didn't have false pride. Once upon a time when people couldn't or didn't want to keep up the raiding schedule, they had the guts and decency to let the rest of us know. Now they slink off into the night without even a word.

Some people will say, they have no ill will towards those who neglected us during progress. Who stopped showing up once things got hard. Who left at the first opportunity. I'm not one of them. To anyone who jumped ship, I'm going to be honest. I have no respect for you. You all claimed you wanted to be members of this guild, you came here, we geared you, and that set an expectation down for you. That you were one of us, just like those who paved the way for you. You turned your back on that, and the last person is just as guilty as the first.

A lot of you might think Valere died this week, but for those of us who have been here for a long time we know that isn't true. Valere died a long time ago. We still killed bosses every week, but the spirit was long gone. The swagger you all came to know and love from us had evaporated. Some of us still carried it, and the guild, but the new people never quite got it. In the end Valere turned into any other guild, a job for the mercenaries who came here. They logged in at 7, picked up their epics, and logged off until the next raid, and that was never what we were about. We were about having fun, and being irreverent, and being honest with ourselves and each other.

What happens now? Well, that's not up to us, it's up to you. Those of us that have been here will always be members of Valere, our characters will disappear, but our memories will not. We didn't create our legend, we were just a group of friends who loved killing raid bosses. All the people who came to our website, and followed our progress, and cheered for our accomplishments, you created the legend, and ultimately you will have the last chapter in this story.


Link
ßleu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojydNb3Lrrs
Falaina

...and all the little sub-guilds in Valere have moved on to create their own guild, or join another.

It was fun while it lasted. I had a BLAST. Seriously. Pew pew!

If anyone knows of an opening for a hunter on a causal raiding basis, let me know. Otherwise, it looks like I'll be hitting the battlegrounds until the expansion.
Adcheus

I will have to think about this a little more, but in the end people put themselves before the guild.  It is not my intent to offend my friends both those here and those that left... but in the end people needed to be ready to work things out.  People need to be willing to suck up that insulting post and be ready to take a high road.  People need to be willing to let go of that non-essential position and find a compromise.

I have no hard feelings for anyone that left the guild, but we have a rare chance to move forward and that is the coming expansion.  The playing field will be leveled and the gear excuses will be gone, as long as people will put the effort in.

Valere was created months before Burning Crusades and we began in 10 mans and built our way up to 25 man content.  It can be done again, if people are willing to put the guild first.  I suppose now is the time, if you aren't ready to rebuild then now is probably the time to go.

Those willing to stay, we should aim for WotLK and begin rebuilding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TLurt26ne4
Marindah

Quote:
Some people will say, they have no ill will towards those who neglected us during progress. Who stopped showing up once things got hard. Who left at the first opportunity. I'm not one of them. To anyone who jumped ship, I'm going to be honest. I have no respect for you. You all claimed you wanted to be members of this guild, you came here, we geared you, and that set an expectation down for you. That you were one of us, just like those who paved the way for you. You turned your back on that, and the last person is just as guilty as the first.


This quote has been running through my mind alot lately.  There are some who have left who I hardly knew and didn't care about.  There were some who left who I really cared about and it hurt that they abandoned us.  There were a few that left who were destructive and vindictive and I felt like it was good to be rid of them.  There are still others who left who I cared for and have no ill will toward, in fact, at times have been envious of them.

For all those that have left in the past and have actually left Valere alone to succeed or fail on its own, regardless of the category that they fell in.....thank you.  It's clear that you had good reasons for going your own way and it was probably better in the long run for both of us.

For all those who have left but made it their life's mission to push and pull the still remaining members of Valere in one way or another to leave:


Link
ßleu

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/pre_game_coin_toss_makes
Dimencia

what did I miss?


teach me to go away for the weekend...
Marindah

Dimencia wrote:
what did I miss?


teach me to go away for the weekend...


nothing new
Adcheus

ßleu wrote:
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/pre_game_coin_toss_makes


LOL...

Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical position which argues that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Nihilists generally assert some or all of the following:
Objective morality does not exist.
No action is logically preferable to any other in regard to the moral value of one action over another.
In the absence of objective morality, existence has no intrinsic higher meaning or goal.
There is no reasonable proof or argument for the existence of a higher ruler or creator.
Even if a higher ruler or creator exists, humanity has no moral obligation to worship them.
The term nihilism is sometimes used synonymously with anomie to denote a general mood of despair at the pointlessness of existence.[1]
Movements such as Dada, Futurism,[2] and deconstructionism,[3] among others, have been identified by commentators as "nihilistic" at various times in various contexts. Often this means or is meant to imply that the beliefs of the accuser are more substantial or truthful, whereas the beliefs of the accused are nihilistic, and thereby comparatively amount to nothing (or are simply claimed to be destructively amoralistic).
Nihilism is also a characteristic that has been ascribed to time periods: for example, Jean Baudrillard and others have called postmodernity a nihilistic epoch,[4] and some Christian theologians and figures of religious authority have asserted that postmodernity[5] and many aspects of modernity[3] represent the rejection of God, and therefore are nihilistic.

Per, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

You missed nothing, pretty literally, LOL.
essex

So I have been sitting on a way to reply to this for a while. Part of me wanted to just let this go....but part of me could not let the BS pile up as high as it has without saying something. So whileto this point I have done my best to keep my nose clean of any and all drama I have to say my peace.

*golf clap* Way to go Cell. You post about Guild Loyalty *after* you leave and try to bring people to follow you to Plan B. Way to go man. Now I'm the guy who was the deciding vote that gave you GL over Kinari. I think long and hard over what path we all would be on had my vote of been different.

See your foot was out the door for a long time make no mistake. You talk a very good game. But the time and effort you put into the guild was in direct porportion to how much ass you were tapping at the time. Not really how much time the job was taking from you. When the woman had your balls...no time for wow or the guild....when you were dumped....you needed your wow friends...simple as that. Your "six months" turned into "as long as I stayed with my GF". Which hey it's all RL and all your business, but don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.

So I would take more stock in your words if your intent and actions were more than the hollow acts that they were. *shrug*

Yup I left. I had my reasons. I kept them to myself for the most part as I did not want drama and/or strife, and wished everyone well. I stayed in touch with those I chose to, and didnt with those I chose not to. Plain and simple. But at least I didn't try to lure people away to another guild while trying to preach togetherness.

Essex
Falaina

The deciding vote? Its internal politics like this that got Valere to where it is today.

People need to grow up and realize they're fighting over a game.

Crowing about guild loyalty and honor is a farce. Stop being rude to each other and you'll find things go a lot nicer. Stop bickering about false self-righteous morals and you'll have no problem at all getting a group together to have fun.

So you're hurt that a friend treated you poorly, we get that. Its happened to a lot of people here lately. Move on already, you're supposed to have learned how to deal with that kind of social situation back in preschool.

Wallowing in the mud is just going to make you dirtier.
Marindah

Falaina wrote:
Its internal politics like this that got Valere to where it is today.
People need to grow up and realize they're fighting over a game.


You were gone for most of the activities that transpired and have come back to a non-raiding guild, you clearly do not have any valuable input into this situation.  While I am not saying whether I agree or disagree with Essex's point of view.  It is HIS point of view, very clearly written that way.  He, at least was an active participant in the guild for the time that he is speaking about and you're patronizing the reading populace because the fight is NEVER about the game.

If you want MY point of view, it is part-time guild members such as yourself that put Valere in the position it is today.  It was due to officers and members who hadn't played in months but still wanted input into how the guild was run who put Valere where it is today.  It was people who leave for months at a time but expect to come back to full-time raiding when they get back that put Valere where it is today.  It was new officers who recruited too many people in greens and half Kara gear so that raid progression went backwards that put Valere where it is today.  It was the bifurcation of opinions on loot distribution systems that put Valere where it is today.  It was raid leaders who couldn't take the pressure of trying to maintain a "casual" atmosphere and still get people to do their jobs to down content as the raiders continually cried that they wanted to do.  And finally it was several Chicken Littles screaming, "the sky is falling, the sky is falling, run for your lives" that pulled us down.  

The thing that kept us going all this time was the general raiding populace who worked on things night after night while the leadership recruited.  The general raiding populace that trained the newly recruited raid groups over and over again due to spots temporarily vacant by part timers.  The veterans who stayed, the new members who were actually geared and experienced enough to last and the new people who Valere just lucked out in getting.  The laughter and friendships of those people. That's what kept us going.

There is not one person in Valere or ex-Valere who is not responsible for its downturn including myself.  Not one.  We all made stupid mistakes, said stupid things and did stupid things. We're all at fault from the Assclown to the Guild Leader both past and present.  What I'm suggesting is that the supercilious expressions be viewed in a bathroom mirror rather than be displayed as a naive and hypocritical post against those who express an opinion.
Falaina

There's the elitist attitude I was describing.

Are you attacking me because I'm right? Or is it because you feel insecure? I just don't understand the hostility...

My point was that for whatever reason things went wrong, get over it. There's no need to continue slinging mud around to see who was more dedicated to the guild. You're fighting over something that really isn't supposed to be more than entertainment.

When did it stop being entertainment to you?
Odette

well for marindah's statement about new people recruiting people in greens, u are wrong.  we tried to get people who were at least kara geared.  There were a couple who were lower gear lvls but we tried to get higher.  I know if i invited anyone who was in less then t4 or t5 i specifically told them they would need to work on gear before getting into MH/BT.

If people would have tried to work together and come to a compromise things may have been different.  U cant say that i wasnt willing to work with people cuz if u look in officer forums u would see i made suggestions on alternatives.

Oh,  and i did have one question.  What happened to u stepping down as CL when it was a 4 against 5 vote on the loot system?  U didnt get your way and decided to step down as CL.  Seems like now that Ranops, Lind, and me are gone u have no reason to step down.  Now u can get your way all the time.  This is the exact reason i left.
Marindah

Apparently, you both can't read.  I'll repeat the point of my post:

There is not one person in Valere or ex-Valere who is not responsible for its downturn including myself.  Not one.  We all made stupid mistakes, said stupid things and did stupid things. We're all at fault from the Assclown to the Guild Leader both past and present.  What I'm suggesting is that the supercilious expressions be viewed in a bathroom mirror rather than be displayed as a naive and hypocritical post against those who express an opinion.
Adcheus

I love lamp.
Falaina

Self deprecation doesn't make you right, it just makes you one of us.

If you had spent more time thinking about what I wrote instead of reacting, you'd realize I was agreeing with you. We all had a hand in one way or another... I just don't see the point in getting angry and leaving rude posts about it.

As for being naive and hypocritical, that's your opinion. I won't get angry about it because I can only assume you don't know me. I did most of my 'raider' raiding while you were on leave so it is understandable.
Adcheus

I'm sorry Champ, I think I ate your chocolate squirrel.
Marindah

Adcheus wrote:
I'm sorry Champ, I think I ate your chocolate squirrel.


Dude...that was MY squirrel....where did you put his nuts????
Ztup

On his chin  Very Happy
Adcheus

I have been thinking about the serious side of these posts, and my mind has a mixture of different thoughts, that I can only hope to convey with some level of honesty.

I've been thinking about the guild, and how much I attempted to make things balanced, and flexible.  To make it sturdy and enduring, yet self governing and welcoming.  I looked at the wisdom of the forefathers of the United States of America as inspiration, accepting that an outline for governing and the wisdom to understand that I don't know everything would be enough to create that outline.

The thing, I didn't take into account is the lack of inertia associated with the game.  What I mean by this is, if in RL the government pisses you off, ie. your political candidate doesn't win the election, people don't move to another city/county/state/province/country because of the difficulty in actually doing it.  The whole process is such a pain and so difficult that people usually just grumble about the winner and accept that things aren't how they like it.  If people could simply /move France and pop, you are living in France (not that anyone would actually pick France, JK) you have a house, the kids are registered for school, you have a job and a car and license and citizenship, etc.  Then people would actually do it.

The facts are, there is little to keep people in the guild.  You can start a chat channel and keep your friends you built up here.  You associate with the people you want and it was simple and easy.

The facts (statisticlly speaking) are people as a whole make bad decisions, and our brains are wired to validate our decision making even if that decision was bad.  

For all the intelligence, and insight people claimed to have about the upcoming problems with the guild none of us had enough of either to know how to bring people together and work to keep the guild moving.

People that left because of drama or because you couldn't implement change, or because you couldn't keep things the same... you will ultimately run into the same issues else where because all of our issues are systematic of every place else.  It may not be now, but they will be eventually because that is the ebb and flow of how things work.

The only thing that keeps people in the guild is the decision to stay, leaving is far to easy to be a deterrent.  For those of you that chose to hop the fence, I'm sure the grass looks greener and it may in fact be for now.  Things do change, for good and for bad.  And hoping the fence to another yard maybe a decision you will have to validate for yourself again in the future.

For those people that feel that it is a game and it should be fun... you are right it should be, but ultimately the game is far to complex to simply be fun.  It is the difficulty and the struggle that makes overcoming those struggles fun to me.  I have no hard feelings for ANY decision people make to leave or stay because it is your decision to make.  I will still talk with and help any of you in any way that I can.  I will welcome you back if you can validate that reason to yourself.

I have a laundry list of reasons to stay and go, and I have validated my good/bad decision to stay and I don't find it necessary to explain that to anyone.  If you chose to stay or to go, to return or to quit the game all together, that is your decision.  I don't have to like it or agree with it, because I am not you.  For those that I talk to one on one, which is most of the people that will read this, I will listen intently to understand your perspective and give you mine in the hope that I can make better decisions in the future.  To find ways to compromise, and improve myself and the sphere of influence I have on the guild and my friends.

I don't know the future, and my wisdom is limited... but I truly hope that many of you will return one day.  Prepared to Validate your reason for returning and prepared to revalidate your reasons to stay, everyday.  Ready to accept change and ready to keep things the same.  Ready to hold your ground and ready to compromise.  Ready to be frustrated, and ready to celebrate.

I hope my comments have not stepped too harshly on any of your toes, but I honestly believe that it is possible to accept someone's decision without agreeing with it... I hope the rest of you can do the same with me.

The harder the struggle the greater the victory.
Marindah

Much more eloquently put than I did, Adcheus but the same sentiment.  I believe yours will be met with more positive results. Razz




Lol, Ztup....you rock!!
Falaina

Adcheus wrote:
The thing, I didn't take into account is the lack of inertia associated with the game.

I agree completely. This is the often overlooked truth.

Adcheus wrote:
For those people that feel that it is a game and it should be fun... you are right it should be, but ultimately the game is far to complex to simply be fun.  It is the difficulty and the struggle that makes overcoming those struggles fun to me.

The challenge is definitely part of the fun.

Valere had a very nice balance. We were doing challenging stuff but in a casual enough way that it still remained fun. Nobody was required to do anything but gear up a little, show up with a few consumables and play as best we could. We did some very interesting things and we didn't have to turn WoW into a second job to do it. That was exactly the level of commitment I was looking for, and it sucks that it isn't available anymore.

Perhaps Valere will achieve that again someday and perhaps, if I'm lucky, I can be part of it.
essex

Our issue was we were at a point where we could not just show up with a few consumables and kara gear and expect to down T6 bosses.

We were at a point where a decision needed to be made between pushing more serious content and relaxing and just being happy with where we were.

Some people were fine with the fun casual enviornment like yourself Fal. Some people wanted to progress further.  Everyone was going to make decisions based on what made the game fun for them. And more power to them for that. They pay their own $15.00 a month and that's their right to do so. However once a defined path is set be it casual or more hardened raid path, it is up to each person to decide if that is the one they want to follow.
Falaina

True.

But it would have been nice if Valere had decided one way or the other, instead of neither. Smile

Anyway, gear needed to be a progression. Kara -> T4 -> T5 -> T6, with badge and pvp gear when you can get it. We ended up with a bunch of people in Kara gear, and a bunch in T5. There was no progression for those who came along too late to get the middle gear. I still believe that we could have continued on had we somehow addressed the growing gear problem.

I understand completely that people didn't want to go back to SSC, Gruul and Mags. It had become very routine, very boring. We still needed to if we wanted to replenish the slow leak of geared raiders. We didn't, and well... we ended up with not enough people to do anything anymore.

No hard feelings, I hope. Its just the way most guilds in most games I've been in end up. None got as far as this one though, and it really was a lot of fun.
gwendelyn

it was actually brought up to the guild at one point that we were moving on to be a raiding guild  no longer a casual raiding guild at one of the guild meeting back on the spring ..... this was when i was still a Cl ... sorry if that causes any issues but i do remember that  at one of the meetings

i know i haven't said much on here as of late but i have been reading the forums several times  a day
just really didn't know how to reply to somethings so i figured it was best stay quite
Cellwynar

Quote:
But it would have been nice if Valere had decided one way or the other, instead of neither.


... wow, for once I agree with Falalina on something - wonders will never cease. This was EXACTLY the problem. There was the element that wanted to progress-progress-progress and weren't happy when we weren't killing bosses, then there was the element that was happy whenever we went raiding. Then again, there were those in the guild who wanted both. There were plenty of people who wanted to progress-progress-progress but weren't willing to put in the effort to do it. Almost everyone was guilty of this. For all people who want to raid, as soon as you start to smash your face on a boss again and again, raiding for the sake of raiding stops being fun.

I've said this over and over again and everyone has read it differently, Valere needed to make a decision between casual and less-casual, but no-one wanted to step up and make that decision. We got stuck in the middle and it ended up destroying us all.

I'm glad to see that all of this has accomplished something. I'm truly glad to see that some are finally starting to open their eyes to the truth of it all. I'm just deeply saddened that in order to open up those eyes, something wonderful had to be destroyed.
Marindah

Falaina wrote:
But it would have been nice if Valere had decided one way or the other, instead of neither. Smile



Yeah, like Gwen said, it was decided to become more raid oriented.  And there were those who fought for the casualness through action and inaction.  That's what ended us.  Both sides got to the point where it was no longer possible to compromise or perhaps...no longer appealing to compromise.

Falaina wrote:
No hard feelings, I hope. Its just the way most guilds in most games I've been in end up. None got as far as this one though, and it really was a lot of fun.



And I definitely don't hold any hard feelings.  Even though you thought I was hostile or being self-deprecating earlier in this post, I wasn't.  I was simply stating my opinion in as objective a manner as possible.  Tone in text, the hardest thing to bring across.
Dimencia

well i have no clue what happen... but dont blame the new people for the guild falling apart



you say kara>t4>t5>t6 with badge and pvp geat when you can


any long time raider will tell you SKILL>GEAR you can be in full T6 and suck

but it dont matter to me...I'm outs too many pointing fingers passing the blame

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