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Adcheus
Site Admin


Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 179


Location: Warlock 33/7/21 Demonology

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I have been thinking about the serious side of these posts, and my mind has a mixture of different thoughts, that I can only hope to convey with some level of honesty.

I've been thinking about the guild, and how much I attempted to make things balanced, and flexible.  To make it sturdy and enduring, yet self governing and welcoming.  I looked at the wisdom of the forefathers of the United States of America as inspiration, accepting that an outline for governing and the wisdom to understand that I don't know everything would be enough to create that outline.

The thing, I didn't take into account is the lack of inertia associated with the game.  What I mean by this is, if in RL the government pisses you off, ie. your political candidate doesn't win the election, people don't move to another city/county/state/province/country because of the difficulty in actually doing it.  The whole process is such a pain and so difficult that people usually just grumble about the winner and accept that things aren't how they like it.  If people could simply /move France and pop, you are living in France (not that anyone would actually pick France, JK) you have a house, the kids are registered for school, you have a job and a car and license and citizenship, etc.  Then people would actually do it.

The facts are, there is little to keep people in the guild.  You can start a chat channel and keep your friends you built up here.  You associate with the people you want and it was simple and easy.

The facts (statisticlly speaking) are people as a whole make bad decisions, and our brains are wired to validate our decision making even if that decision was bad.  

For all the intelligence, and insight people claimed to have about the upcoming problems with the guild none of us had enough of either to know how to bring people together and work to keep the guild moving.

People that left because of drama or because you couldn't implement change, or because you couldn't keep things the same... you will ultimately run into the same issues else where because all of our issues are systematic of every place else.  It may not be now, but they will be eventually because that is the ebb and flow of how things work.

The only thing that keeps people in the guild is the decision to stay, leaving is far to easy to be a deterrent.  For those of you that chose to hop the fence, I'm sure the grass looks greener and it may in fact be for now.  Things do change, for good and for bad.  And hoping the fence to another yard maybe a decision you will have to validate for yourself again in the future.

For those people that feel that it is a game and it should be fun... you are right it should be, but ultimately the game is far to complex to simply be fun.  It is the difficulty and the struggle that makes overcoming those struggles fun to me.  I have no hard feelings for ANY decision people make to leave or stay because it is your decision to make.  I will still talk with and help any of you in any way that I can.  I will welcome you back if you can validate that reason to yourself.

I have a laundry list of reasons to stay and go, and I have validated my good/bad decision to stay and I don't find it necessary to explain that to anyone.  If you chose to stay or to go, to return or to quit the game all together, that is your decision.  I don't have to like it or agree with it, because I am not you.  For those that I talk to one on one, which is most of the people that will read this, I will listen intently to understand your perspective and give you mine in the hope that I can make better decisions in the future.  To find ways to compromise, and improve myself and the sphere of influence I have on the guild and my friends.

I don't know the future, and my wisdom is limited... but I truly hope that many of you will return one day.  Prepared to Validate your reason for returning and prepared to revalidate your reasons to stay, everyday.  Ready to accept change and ready to keep things the same.  Ready to hold your ground and ready to compromise.  Ready to be frustrated, and ready to celebrate.

I hope my comments have not stepped too harshly on any of your toes, but I honestly believe that it is possible to accept someone's decision without agreeing with it... I hope the rest of you can do the same with me.

The harder the struggle the greater the victory.

_________________


"Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction." - Isaiah 48:10
Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:58 am View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Marindah



Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 205



Post Reply with quote
Much more eloquently put than I did, Adcheus but the same sentiment.  I believe yours will be met with more positive results. Razz




Lol, Ztup....you rock!!

_________________
"The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment." - Robert M. Hutchins
Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:10 am View user's profile Send private message
Falaina



Joined: 21 Aug 2008
Posts: 20


Location: Halifax, NS, Canada

Post Reply with quote
Adcheus wrote:
The thing, I didn't take into account is the lack of inertia associated with the game.

I agree completely. This is the often overlooked truth.

Adcheus wrote:
For those people that feel that it is a game and it should be fun... you are right it should be, but ultimately the game is far to complex to simply be fun.  It is the difficulty and the struggle that makes overcoming those struggles fun to me.

The challenge is definitely part of the fun.

Valere had a very nice balance. We were doing challenging stuff but in a casual enough way that it still remained fun. Nobody was required to do anything but gear up a little, show up with a few consumables and play as best we could. We did some very interesting things and we didn't have to turn WoW into a second job to do it. That was exactly the level of commitment I was looking for, and it sucks that it isn't available anymore.

Perhaps Valere will achieve that again someday and perhaps, if I'm lucky, I can be part of it.
Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:25 am View user's profile Send private message
essex



Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 10



Post Reply with quote
Our issue was we were at a point where we could not just show up with a few consumables and kara gear and expect to down T6 bosses.

We were at a point where a decision needed to be made between pushing more serious content and relaxing and just being happy with where we were.

Some people were fine with the fun casual enviornment like yourself Fal. Some people wanted to progress further.  Everyone was going to make decisions based on what made the game fun for them. And more power to them for that. They pay their own $15.00 a month and that's their right to do so. However once a defined path is set be it casual or more hardened raid path, it is up to each person to decide if that is the one they want to follow.
Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:12 pm View user's profile Send private message
Falaina



Joined: 21 Aug 2008
Posts: 20


Location: Halifax, NS, Canada

Post Reply with quote
True.

But it would have been nice if Valere had decided one way or the other, instead of neither. :)

Anyway, gear needed to be a progression. Kara -> T4 -> T5 -> T6, with badge and pvp gear when you can get it. We ended up with a bunch of people in Kara gear, and a bunch in T5. There was no progression for those who came along too late to get the middle gear. I still believe that we could have continued on had we somehow addressed the growing gear problem.

I understand completely that people didn't want to go back to SSC, Gruul and Mags. It had become very routine, very boring. We still needed to if we wanted to replenish the slow leak of geared raiders. We didn't, and well... we ended up with not enough people to do anything anymore.

No hard feelings, I hope. Its just the way most guilds in most games I've been in end up. None got as far as this one though, and it really was a lot of fun.
Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:56 pm View user's profile Send private message
gwendelyn



Joined: 21 Aug 2008
Posts: 5



Post Reply with quote
it was actually brought up to the guild at one point that we were moving on to be a raiding guild  no longer a casual raiding guild at one of the guild meeting back on the spring ..... this was when i was still a Cl ... sorry if that causes any issues but i do remember that  at one of the meetings

i know i haven't said much on here as of late but i have been reading the forums several times  a day
just really didn't know how to reply to somethings so i figured it was best stay quite
Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:21 pm View user's profile Send private message
Cellwynar



Joined: 19 Aug 2008
Posts: 56


Location: Anywhere, USA

Post Reply with quote
Quote:
But it would have been nice if Valere had decided one way or the other, instead of neither.


... wow, for once I agree with Falalina on something - wonders will never cease. This was EXACTLY the problem. There was the element that wanted to progress-progress-progress and weren't happy when we weren't killing bosses, then there was the element that was happy whenever we went raiding. Then again, there were those in the guild who wanted both. There were plenty of people who wanted to progress-progress-progress but weren't willing to put in the effort to do it. Almost everyone was guilty of this. For all people who want to raid, as soon as you start to smash your face on a boss again and again, raiding for the sake of raiding stops being fun.

I've said this over and over again and everyone has read it differently, Valere needed to make a decision between casual and less-casual, but no-one wanted to step up and make that decision. We got stuck in the middle and it ended up destroying us all.

I'm glad to see that all of this has accomplished something. I'm truly glad to see that some are finally starting to open their eyes to the truth of it all. I'm just deeply saddened that in order to open up those eyes, something wonderful had to be destroyed.

_________________


"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. You know, I just do things."

Last edited by Cellwynar on Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:42 pm View user's profile Send private message
Marindah



Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 205



Post Reply with quote
Falaina wrote:
But it would have been nice if Valere had decided one way or the other, instead of neither. Smile



Yeah, like Gwen said, it was decided to become more raid oriented.  And there were those who fought for the casualness through action and inaction.  That's what ended us.  Both sides got to the point where it was no longer possible to compromise or perhaps...no longer appealing to compromise.

Falaina wrote:
No hard feelings, I hope. Its just the way most guilds in most games I've been in end up. None got as far as this one though, and it really was a lot of fun.



And I definitely don't hold any hard feelings.  Even though you thought I was hostile or being self-deprecating earlier in this post, I wasn't.  I was simply stating my opinion in as objective a manner as possible.  Tone in text, the hardest thing to bring across.

_________________
"The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment." - Robert M. Hutchins
Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:43 pm View user's profile Send private message
Dimencia



Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 19



Post Reply with quote
well i have no clue what happen... but dont blame the new people for the guild falling apart



you say kara>t4>t5>t6 with badge and pvp geat when you can


any long time raider will tell you SKILL>GEAR you can be in full T6 and suck

but it dont matter to me...I'm outs too many pointing fingers passing the blame



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Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:51 pm View user's profile Send private message
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